Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Chris Dontermont, a veteran MP from Nova Scotia, has just walked away from Pierre Poliev's Conservatives and joined Mark Carney's Liberals. One man switching sides might not sound like much, but in a post election Parliament still trying to steady itself, it could signal something bigger. Are the cracks starting to show inside the Conservative machine? I'm speaking with Jim Lang today about that very topic.
Jim Lang, thank you so much for being here.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Mike Wixon, a pleasure.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: I don't know about you, I'm exhausted. I watched the Budget. You know what, it's so funny.
This week it was the Blue Jays till way too late at night. Oh, don't.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: It hurts.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: Sorry about that, Blue J fans.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: It still hurts.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: And then last night, what is with me? I'm watching government television at 11:30 at night rewatching the budget.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Well, there is a good reason. It's not very often in Canadian politics that we have almost a US style dramatic event unfold while the budget is coming out. What a lot of people say are a generational budget for Mark Carney and the Liberals. At the same time, a sitting Conservative MP crosses the floor to the Liberals, putting Carney just two shorts, two votes short of a majority.
Chris, Don Tremont has been an MP in Nova Scotia since 2019. We'll allow him to explain what happened. Listen to his words. They're very telling.
[00:01:34] Speaker C: Making sure. Yeah. Mr. Dontrell, Michael with CTV News. I wanted to ask you what was the deciding factor in crossing the floor and if you could also indulge how many other conservatives in your caucus feel the same way that you do?
[00:01:49] Speaker D: Well, let's start with, with the story of how I got here. You know, I would think over the last number of months I wasn't feeling that I was aligned with the, the ideals of what the leader of the opposition had been talking about. So I've been sort of relooking at, you know, what my, my career is bringing and what I can do for my constituency. So over the last little bit, talking to many of my friends in the Liberal Party, as deputy speaker, I get to know a lot of those, a lot of those members personally, ask questions, see what's going on and understanding the point that we are in, in Canadian history where we are, where it's time to actually try to lead, lead a country, to try to make it better and not try to knock it down, not to continue to be negative in my case as a Nova Scotian. And we're always trying to find ways to work together to solve, solve the issues that are important to our communities. And I didn't see it by sitting in the opposition.
I saw it by being a part of the government caucus.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: I mean, he says a lot right there. Chris is obviously frustrated of what was going on with Pierre Polyev and the Conservatives. And he also saying the Liberals wooed him. This was not a decision that was made that morning while he was having his coffee. These are talks that have been happening weeks leading up to what happened yesterday.
[00:03:20] Speaker A: Yeah, it feels very, it feels a little underhanded to me in one sense that, you know, he was voted as a Conservative.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: His constituents are expecting him to hold up that party line. Meanwhile, he's spending his time getting to understand where he fits in the Liberal Party. That's the one thing that, that struck me on this.
He doesn't come across too decisive, to be honest with you.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: What strikes me is he got tired of the negative spin from Pauliev in the inner circle of the Conservatives. When we're at a sort of a tipping point as a country in trying to get through Covid, trying to get through 51st state and Trump trying to get through tariffs, trying to improve the country as a whole. He's trying to be a consensus builder. And it was his words that he felt there was always negative and say no and they wanted to build something. So he went over with Carney. Whether you agree with him or not, that's his feeling. That's his feeling. And that also is something that Pierre Poliev has to answer for you. It's got to explain, you know, you know, his management style maybe isn't.
People aren't buying what he's selling in his management style within his party. And there has been a lot of well placed political insiders who are intimating there are other mps who may consider doing the same. And when you're Carney and you're two votes short of a majority to do whatever you want, they're going to be putting on a full court press to get those who are on the fence. You know they are.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: It's funny that you say that because I wonder if this is the canary in the coal mine. I think this may not be the last resistance we see within the party because as you say, rumblings out there are pretty consistent over the last eight, nine weeks.
[00:05:01] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: From political insiders saying this is, this is starting to crumble a little bit underneath. Polly have. And of course, one of the things that I did notice that Chris said that I found really striking was it's not a time for opposition and we'll hear from him later on this. It's not a time for negativity. Well, the party is the opposition.
Yes. You need to look out for your constituents, and that means that you need to participate in government properly in that position.
But what really struck me as odd was that statement of it's not a time for negativity. It's not a time for opposition. It's a time to get on the other side.
And that's a pretty, Pretty decisive thing to say.
[00:05:44] Speaker B: The follow from this, the collateral damage of this, we don't even trul. Truly understand yet. Mike.
[00:05:50] Speaker A: And of course, do you think that it was kind of planted on this very special day? It was almost like, I'm gonna ruin Christmas for the. For the opposition.
[00:06:00] Speaker B: Without question. I mean, Carney, even the day after, the morning after, you know, was smirking, talking to reporters about it. He couldn't hide his pleasure. Yeah, the schadenfreude of how he felt towards Pollyv and the Conservatives, that this came out the same day as the budget.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: There's no used schadenfreude. Yeah, it's not used enough in podcasts.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: But it's a great example. But this is exactly how he felt the day after.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: I'm sorry. I'm sorry for your misfortune.
[00:06:29] Speaker B: Sorry for your misfortune. Oh, well, yeah, look, here's the public polling is one thing, but the Conservatives also have their internal polling. The public polling is showing this consistently over the last month, that the Liberals and Conservatives are within two or three points of each other. However, the polling, when it comes to leaders, Carney and Poliev. Carney's leading by 20 points consistently. He is 20 points ahead of Poliev. Now, even someone with the most rudimentary knowledge of Canadian politics would tell you that if you had a different leader, you have a chance to beat Carney and the Liberals.
[00:07:03] Speaker A: I wonder if this really is the tipping point. We see this three or four more times, maybe not with MPs, but members of the party starting to walk away. Maybe that becomes the moment where the party has to say, we need a different face on this.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: You can't tell me that right now that there's a luncheon going on in Ottawa with some high placed Conservative power brokers and MPs having a serious conversation about the future. Pure Polly of the Conservatives. Can we win an election with Poliev as a leader? And right now the math is not adding up that they can't win. They'll always be 30, 40 vote short or A seat short of any kind of election win. So unless they get a different leader, that won't change the math that they're dealing with right now.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: It's so funny, I went around the room and asked everybody, what's your biggest question about this whole thing with Chris Don Trema? And you know, the number one thing that I heard was, how is this possible? Like, can he just announce that. No, he can't just announce that he's crossing the floor to the Liberals. This is the process.
The MP has to resign from their party caucus and then, by the way, he has to send formal notice. So this was sent in advance of yesterday once, once it's accepted, which means that the party says, yeah, okay, see you later, bye.
[00:08:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:26] Speaker A: The next they have to join another party's caucus and they have to agree to it. And in this case, of course, and they have to make a formal acceptance.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: So Carney was not going to say no.
[00:08:36] Speaker A: No. Because it is great theater. It's, it's, you know, a really generally, historically a great liberal market, you know, being represented. And he wants it back. So of course there was. Now it makes me wonder this as well. All of this, you know, behind the scenes, correct work.
What have they promised him? What will Chris come away with that is.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: Well, he didn't just do it just to sit in the back benches, I don't think so there's no chance that he's going to sit in the far back benches of the House of Commons after crossing the floor. So all of a sudden, when you see the TV shot of Carney, you may see Don Tremont's face over his left or right shoulder in the camera shot that he has some sort of place within the Liberal caucus. But the conversations, the power plays that are going on behind the scenes across the country are definitely happening. And it's not just the Conservatives, it's ndp. It could be a Green Party, it could be a block Quebec Wall party.
Who knows who it is going to be? But then when they're this close, two votes short of a majority to pass the budget and continue with their agenda, you'd be crazy not to think this is. We may not. We may see more of these within the next four or five weeks before the holiday break.
[00:09:52] Speaker A: Talk about burying the headline. I mean, yesterday we, we watched Champagne read the entire budget, I think.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: Yes, I know. You were like, my eyes. I can't.
[00:10:05] Speaker A: But having said that, they kind of buried the headline. They might have come out with this first. By the way, we've got somebody who's crossed the floor and now pay attention to why. You know, I almost think that the order of this was really miscalculated.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: No, no, no. I say it's highly calculated by Carney and the Liberals because typically, historically, you're the Prime Minister, you're the Finance Minister, you, you table the budget in the House of Commons. The whole rest of the day is the opposition talking about it. Now the same day that the budget's tabled, an MP crosses the floor to the Liberals. That kind of has to be answered to. So now you have two things to answer to so there's less focus on your criticism of the budget because everyone's going to answer for this MP on the same day who's now crossed the floor.
[00:10:50] Speaker A: Let's have another look at another piece of video here with MP Chris Dantremont.
[00:10:57] Speaker D: Probably up in the direction he was going. But I'm just wondering whether the conservative.
[00:11:00] Speaker B: Leadership style perhaps pushed you out of caucus.
[00:11:03] Speaker D: Well, I think that's probably a part of it. I didn't find I was represented there, that my ideals of an Easterner, of a, of a, of a Red Tory, I mean, quite honestly, of trying to find ways to, to find solutions and help your community rather than trying to oppose everything that's happening. And I think that's the opportunity that's been on. Offered by Prime Minister Carney and the government caucus is, is to help find solutions at this critical time for Canada. It's just looking at leadership styles and whether we're doing the right thing for Canada or we're doing the right thing for ourselves. I would rather be on the side.
[00:11:39] Speaker B: Of Canadians now that the money line right there. Doing the right thing for Canada or doing the right thing for ourselves. That is the ultimate shot of Pierre pov.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: It is. And it kind of buys him a little bit of time in his own writing, I think, to explain himself.
[00:11:53] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right.
[00:11:53] Speaker A: Because he's got to do a little bit of back campaigning now, I think. I mean, his constituents in his own writing are going to be like, wait, wait, wait, hold on. What happened? We voted for a Conservative guy.
What are you doing? And he's going to have to go back now and he's going to market himself backward, I think.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: So next week I'll be in Nova Scotia visiting some family. And a big part of the budget is 51 billion for infrastructure for development. And anyone who spent time in Nova Scotia know that there's key highways, the 101, the 102 other key highways in Nova Scotia that Need infrastructure work that need improving, widening. The province is growing. So now he's part of a government that's trying to take some of that 51 billion, pour it into Nova Scotia, who watches a lot of times the money going to the lower mainland of bc, to the Golden Horseshoe, to the Montreal Quebec City corridor. And they're hoping maybe some of that infrastructure money will be used in Nova Scotia.
[00:12:45] Speaker A: Man, you raise a good point. It's hard to be the opposition to a bunch of money being spent in.
[00:12:49] Speaker B: Your province and a province that needs the money.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: That needs the, the infrastructure that has seen a lot of growth. And now in Nova Scotia there are people commuting 45 minutes, an hour, an hour and a half into Halifax, Dartmouth for work, which was unheard of 10 years ago.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: In that clip he talks about not feeling represented right now. I gotta, I have to ask, is that a sentiment like you say, a shot, a direct shot of Pauliev out of that clip but buried within it he says, you know, I didn't feel, not that I was or wasn't. I didn't feel that my constituents were best represented that I think were best represented as part of the nation.
[00:13:27] Speaker B: I would love to sit down, have a coffee or tea with some of these MPs in private and ask them that very question.
Off the record. Hey, what do you, what do you think? Because a lot of them won't speak on the record.
[00:13:37] Speaker A: Well, apparently Polly have won't.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it was left to Melissa Lansman and Aaron Gunn and other MPs but.
[00:13:43] Speaker A: She didn't really answer it either. In all fairness, you kind of addressed it for a second and then wanted to get back to this, his budget.
[00:13:49] Speaker B: Because historically that's how the opposition makes their bones. Is responding to. But they, they couldn't. They had.
[00:13:55] Speaker A: Makes me wonder, you know, I, I wish that there was some leadership on the conservative side that was making a difference. But I wonder and maybe poly of his. But I wonder if Canadians perception of it and frankly his own party members perception of him is that he's been standing up barking like a dog for too many years and not getting anywhere.
[00:14:17] Speaker B: That is. Look, when the public perceives that it's awfully difficult to change that and is.
[00:14:23] Speaker A: Is frankly the polling which I rarely buy into is a little obvious as well.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: And that's the thing, it's the likability trust poll. They keep saying who do you trust more? Who's the more likable? Who's the more reasonable Prime Minister? And Carney is polling 20 points higher every week. And that's not by accident.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: Now, where do they draw their next leader from if they decide to remove Pollyville?
[00:14:47] Speaker B: Now that's a great question. Now, I'm a big fan of Rona Ambrose, who is a likely candidate. A likely candidate. A longtime mp, deep roots out West, a brilliant politician, a brilliant parliamentarian, a very smart woman.
We need more women in this country. In seats of power.
They have to cast a wide net. They need to get someone, I believe so that they have. It's not just the next leader of the Conservative Party candidate. It's the next leader they believe who could win an election. That is the biggest challenge for the Conservatives is to put aside ego, put aside, you know, your biases and go, okay, no matter what you think of that person, could they beat Carney and the Liberals in the election? That's the big question.
[00:15:34] Speaker A: The other thing that Carney has up against him at the moment is Alberta. Yeah, I mean, they really have lost faith in. I mean, that is just the basic structure and framework of the Conservative Party and a lot of their base is right there. And it seems like they're losing to the notion that Alberta should just do something completely on its own.
[00:15:55] Speaker B: However, here's how Carney can basically negate that. He's talking about 51 billion for infrastructure and he talked about an ability to bypass some of the no pipeline laws that if it's clean, the cocktail clean liquefied natural gas. So once the prevent him from building a liquid natural gas pipeline from Alberta to Churchill, Manitoba to ship to Europe and it qualifies under his clean, clean natural gas, liquefied natural gas, all of a sudden Alberta will think pretty good of him because now they have a pipeline shipping their resources to Churchill to sell to Europe.
[00:16:30] Speaker A: I'll tell you what I'm going to leave. I'm going to leave it to The Gooch, Paul McGucci.
[00:16:34] Speaker B: Yes. To get in depth, in depth with the budget.
[00:16:38] Speaker A: But you're right, I think on the west coast that's likely where a leader comes from, from that party. But they need to be somebody that is really ensconced in the resources, really ensconced in what's happening across the country at the grassroots rather than what I think is perceived often. And even if it's not, Pierre Poliev is in. The poor guy is in a position, frankly, where he has been barking for so long on the other side of.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: The fence, people have tuned him out.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: That the tune out is massive.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: In a fresh voice. It's in sports.
[00:17:10] Speaker A: He Makes great points, he makes great sense.
[00:17:12] Speaker B: Okay. But you could be the greatest coach in the world. Eventually the players stop listening.
[00:17:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:18] Speaker B: So you need a new voice. And it's no different in business, in whatever and in any walk of life. Eventually you need a different voice, a different face to lead the company, lead the party, lead the team. This is where the Conservatives are right now. He didn't win a seat. He had basically in limbo in the summer. He wins a by election out west in Crowfoot in Alberta. Good on him.
[00:17:40] Speaker A: That was heavily protested as well.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: Heavily protest.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: Managed to do it.
[00:17:44] Speaker B: But you have to think, would we be better off if you're the Conservatives with a different leader, with a different voice, a different style, a different leadership style and a different vision to Canada? Would that play better? So that's a big challenge.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: Maybe even just a new playbook, Jim. I mean, yes, maybe a new way of representing. And I don't know if current leadership could take a, you know, could pivot slightly with how they speak to Canadians and how they address the government in Parliament.
[00:18:14] Speaker B: As far as I can see, the.
[00:18:15] Speaker A: Poly, very argumentative indeed.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Right. So Pauliev, in the current inner circle are very set on their way of doing things.
So we saw Polly of back in the House of Commons. Was he a changed man? Was he really?
[00:18:28] Speaker A: No, no.
[00:18:28] Speaker B: So you saw basically a hiatus. He's back. He's the same guy.
So the Conservatives didn't win under him last time with that tactic, and he's back to doing the same thing. So that tells me that the Conservatives have no choice but to pick a new leader, a new face, a new voice, a new way of governing the country. They have to prove to Canada that they have a leader who can govern. Because right now all the polling is they like the Conservatives. They like a lot of their what they have to say and a lot of their topics and a lot of their ideas. They just don't like the leader.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: And you know, the other thing that I noticed is in Ontario, anyway, we've got Doug Ford really putting mud on the lens of the Conservative Party because from his Conservative leadership in Ontario, he's up against Polly of a lot like he. Although the parties are not aligned necessarily, you expect them to some degree to support one another. And there's very little love there.
[00:19:22] Speaker B: Mike. Anyone not in from Ontario have to understand how powerful Doug Ford and the Conservatives are in Ontario.
[00:19:30] Speaker A: Ford Nation, man, it's.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: Ford Nation is a real thing. So for Pauliev not to break bread with Ford, make peace before the election is One of the silliest moves ever and he did not have Ontario support is crazy.
[00:19:44] Speaker A: He's basically going fishing with Carney. I think, you know, it's, it's. They become real close, they go to.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: The cottage, they have dinner together. Ontario has 16 million people, almost half the country.
That you win Ontario in a federal election, you basically win the election. So you need the support of the sitting premier in the party. And to have the most powerful conservative premier in the country not supporting the conservatives in election seems ludicrous to me. Because you didn't take the time to go, you know what, let's come to a peace agreement, let's have a truce, let's work for the better good of Canada. But Polyev's ego wouldn't let him do it.
[00:20:21] Speaker A: I think we drew the right straw talking about Chris Dontramont because the budget discussion, I think is going to go several episodes.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:20:28] Speaker A: By the way, stay with the network because we will have up to date content probably over the coming days.
[00:20:35] Speaker B: I would imagine it will take days.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: To sort through it and, and there'll be a lot of conjecture, I'm sure, between here and there.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: And the fact that part of the budget is to try to get the CBC to host Eurovision. Did you see that?
[00:20:46] Speaker A: I saw that, yeah.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: So let's Eurovision in Canada.
[00:20:50] Speaker A: Let's see what we can have happen here. Will people actually be buying a CBC product finally? Who knows?
Good Lord, Jim, thanks. I really appreciate it. Thanks for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe. Go to TPL Media CA where you can subscribe all the content. Oh, yeah. Don't forget to get your pop, get your poppy and we'll see you next time. Thank you.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: Sam.
